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"The sky is the limit for Indo-German relationship"

Amit Baruah

Bernd Mutzelburgis Germany's new envoy in India. In an interview toThe Hindu, the Ambassador, a former foreign and security policy adviser to the German Chancellor, spoke on a range of issues, including Berlin's attitude towards the Indo-U.S. nuclear deal. Excerpts:

Bernd Mutzelburg: "There are a number of very positive developments in the Indo-U.S. civilian nuclear deal." — Photo: Special Arrangement

On Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's upcoming visit to Germany:

We really want to give substance to the strategic partnership the two sides agreed upon in the year 2000. We have, in the meantime, been able to make quite some headway in all the important fields. But, of course, I think we need these kinds of state visits in order to give a further impetus to the issues as they emerge.

The Prime Minister will also be coming to Germany in order to participate in the Hanover fair, which is the largest industrial fair in the world. He will be accompanied by a delegation of Indian businessmen. By the very nature of this visit, a very strong emphasis will be on our economic relationship.

It is true that the trade relationship has grown much faster than we had all anticipated. In October 2004, when Chancellor [Gerhard] Schroeder was here, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and he agreed on the objective of doubling our bilateral trade within the next five years.

In 2004, we had had a trade volume of about 4.5 billion Euros; the doubling would mean 9 billion [Euros] by 2009. As a matter of fact, we are already reaching this year 7.2 billion [Euros].

The growth rate has been in the range of nearly 22 per cent from last year. This means we'll be able to achieve this target much earlier than anticipated.

I think we have not yet reached the [full] potential of [bilateral] cooperation ... obviously; the sky is the limit for this relationship.

On the German position on lifting curbs against India at the Nuclear Suppliers' Group (NSG) given their strategic partnership:

We understand and appreciate India's energy needs. For us, I think, it is totally acceptable that in order to cope with the energy needs [of] a dynamically growing industry; India will need an energy mix, which will also, of course, include nuclear energy. So, we can very well understand the Indian side negotiating this [civilian nuclear] deal [with the United States].

On the other hand, if you look at Germany, you see a country, which after the horrors of [the] two World Wars, has always been among the most avid promoters of international disarmament and arms control.

We look at this [Indo-U.S.] deal not only with a view for what does it do for peaceful uses of energy, but also whether it will strengthen the nuclear non-proliferation arrangements or will it weaken it.

I would say there are a number of very positive developments in this deal, which lead to the conclusion that it will strengthen the nuclear non-proliferation regime ... it cannot be overlooked that we still have a number of questions directed at India, which we hope we can discuss in a constructive manner in the strategic dialogue forum which we are in the process of establishing. Questions, for example, that have to do with the Iranian issue ... the issue of double standards.

On what he means by double standards on the Iranian issue:

Our Foreign Minister [Frank-Walter Steinmeier] has expressed reservations about the timing of this deal. He said we are just trying now to get Iran to renounce the enrichment of uranium in Iran while at the same time we are allowing India, which is not a member of the NPT [Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty], to continue enriching nuclear fuel and so forth.

At the same time, everybody in Germany understands, the Foreign Minister more so than anyone else, that you cannot make a comparison between India and Iran, not only because one is [a] partner to the NPT and the other one is not, but also because India has a proven record of being a reliable and responsible state as far as [non-] proliferation is concerned.

On whether support for India's case at the NSG is an open issue:

We are more open than you just described it. I think we appreciate the positive steps involved in this nuclear deal. But, of course, we would hope that India would continue to grow into a revised, repaired, an adjusted NPT regime. It cannot be the same one as exists right now; obviously, India is in a category, which was not foreseen by the NPT ...

On whether this implies reopening the NPT:

I think for the time being this is not feasible because of a number of reasons. What I'm saying is as long as we have a Treaty to which more than 180 states adhere to, we should not get rid of this Treaty before we have something that is better than the old Treaty. Let's work on improving what we have.

We have all realised that the old Treaty does contain a number of deficits, loopholes, and is obviously not a perfect global system. So, let's try to perfect it; which can only be, given the present situation, a long-term objective.

But we would like to see and I see it now already ... in which India is growing more and more into the same status, which other nuclear weapons states have, with the same rights, with the same obligations. That is a process, which we would like to support. Therefore, we are not going to reject the [civilian nuclear] deal [with the U.S.] ...

You have a situation now that the majority within the NSG says, and they do have a point, let's wait until [the U.S.] Congress has approved the deal before we position ourselves ... we want in particular not only to see whether it is being ratified, but also how it is being ratified.

On the possibility of India and Germany cooperating in the defence field:

Most definitely so. We have supplied India with submarines some years ago. We regret very much we could not become partners in the present Scorpene [French submarine] deal where, I might be forgiven as the German ambassador to say so, we certainly had a competitive product. But that is another matter.

We would be very much interested in defence cooperation, which would include cooperation in the export of German arms and equipment to India with adequate offsetting component.

You might have heard that we are in the process of negotiating an agreement on cooperation in defence matters. We aren't yet fully sure whether we will be able to conclude it on time [for the Prime Minister's visit].

This has nothing to do with substantive considerations, but only because we received the last draft very, very late ...

On whether the G-4 has lost the opportunity to enter the United Nations Security Council as permanent members for the moment:

I would agree with you that the momentum has, undoubtedly, been reduced not because of India and Germany, but because of other states. It would be illusionary to claim otherwise. The issue is not going to go away because the Security Council is not representative of the international system of the 21st Century.

On the current, civil war or near-civil war type, situation in Iraq and how the rest of the world should deal with such a big mess:

If I had a recipe, I would only be too glad to share it with you. I am afraid the issue has become more and more difficult, but, of course, in politics you must never give up hope. What I see now is that the Iraqi people are paying the price for the mess ...

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