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"You must decide it [Kashmir] amongst yourselves"

This photograph of Mao Zedong was taken by K. Natwar Singh in Beijing in October 1957.

In 1956 Kunwar Natwar Singh, future Foreign Minister of India, was a 25-year-old second secretary at the Indian Embassy in Beijing. He kept a diary of what he saw, heard, and experienced in China between 1956 and 1958.

An Indian parliamentary delegation led by Lok Sabha Speaker M. Ananthasayanam Ayyangar arrived in Beijing on September 29, 1956 and was received at the airport by Liu Shaoqi. If G.V. Mavalankar, the first Speaker of the Lok Sabha, had been alive, noted the diarist, he would have led this delegation. "I remember his discussing this trip with Soong Ching Ling when she was in India last December."

The Natwar diary entry recording the parliamentary delegation's meeting with Chairman Mao Zedong will be of special interest at a time President Hu Jintao pays an important visit to India.

19th October 1956

Later in the evening (10.30 p.m.) we were told that Chairman Mao would receive the delegation at midnight. Something very thrilling about the timing of this interview, and typical of things here. Mao had been told that one of the members of the delegation would be leaving the next day, so he fixed the midnight hour. The MPs all turned up in ceremonial dress except Sinha but he had packed up his things. Haider Hussain did not show up, said he was too tired, I suppose in the late sixties even an interview with Mao Tse Tung does not excite, but if I was that age I would have definitely gone for this historic meeting.

We arrived at the Chairman's House a little before twelve, drove through the entrance on West Changan Boulevard skirting the waters of the Nanhai. Not too many guards etc., visible. We passed through two courtyards and then into the audience chamber where Mao received the delegation. It was spherical chamber, something like the main hall of the Rashtrapati Bhavan in Delhi but not that large. Flood lit and heavily carpeted. We were all introduced to Mao Tse Tung and shook hands with him. Director Yu introduced me.

Mao has a soft skin, bad teeth (chain smokes), is half-bald, heavy and tall for a Chinese. Mole very prominent, Liu Shao Chi also present, so was Peng Chang the Mayor of Peking and several others. Group Photograph followed. Then we walked or rather fled into an adjoining room. There we all sat on two sides of a long rectangular table.

The Speaker sat opposite the Chairman and for the next 90 minutes these two did almost all the talking. The Speaker talked much more and did more than justice to himself and the delegation. The interview started with the usual courtiers and Chinese tea served by young male and female waiters, who did not mind spilling some of the tea on the interpreter who jerked his hands too much. I was struck by the fact that there was no atmosphere of servility; the interpreter sitting next to the Chairman was smoking away, I can't imagine a thing like that in Delhi.

Chairman Mao Tse Tung is said to be the least sophisticated of the Chinese leaders but that in no way diminishes his persona. He is a great intellectual, original thinker, ruthless, practical, a very good listener, and leg puller. But I think the Speaker put up a very good show and this was evident from the length of the interview, and from the obvious interest Mao took in what the Speaker had to say. It was something more than courtesy and politeness that made him sit for 90 minutes and listen to talk which at times came perilously near the awkward and the embarrassing, but the Speaker navigated his vocal craft through the rapids with dexterity. At times he became patronising and elementary.

Mao seems to know more about India than our MPs know about China. He had his own digs and gave polite monosyllabic answers in the earlier part of the interview, but later he opened up. He gave little away except on Pakistan, but that came much later.

Points Mao made

1. I see changes on the globe and visualise that the West is withering away. We are not bothered about the U.K. and Europe but about USA. At the moment USA is not afraid of China but it is afraid of the Soviet Union.

2. At the moment we are far behind the USA technically and it will take us about 20 years to catch up with them.

3. Unlike you, we have made the mistake of having a vast army of nearly three million and that has hampered progress in other fields. "Do you think that we have too large an army?" The reply that Ayyangar gave was most tactful and sensible: "We have not studied the military aspect and neither have we seen any of your military installations. We went wherever our hosts took us, we did not wish to embarrass them by asking them to show places that they might not like us to visit." To this Mao said: "No, we would not have been embarrassed and we have nothing to hide from you." Ayyangar said: "Our Armed forces delegation that is here told me that you had not kept anything from them and they had been very satisfied with their visit." Mao: "I asked them the same question, but they did not tell me if they thought that our army was too large, that is why I am asking you." Ayyangar: "We need to defend our territories and that is the main purpose for having an army. India has no dangers, but your problems are different and you had perforce had to keep this large army. Like us, you have a large population and it was your manpower that saved the day in Korea."

4. Mao said that China had been spending 33 per cent of her budget on defence. This was too much. In the next few years they hoped to bring it to 20 per cent and then to 12 per cent. "We want peace and must develop our country. At the moment we can only produce medium sized machinery, not big and precision machinery. This we must build." He said this in reply to Ayyangar's remark that India and China led the world in handicrafts. Mao never once said that China was on top in anything. This studied modesty is typical of all Chinese leaders and in sharp contrast to our leaders who are all the time patting themselves on the back and throwing their achievements in the face of others. The Chinese tone is: "We have done very little, we wish to learn from you."

5. Mao listened with interest to all that Ayyangar had to say about our five year plan and the national movement. Mao said that they had been misinformed about the national movement in India and it was only now they realised that the struggle led by Gandhi and Nehru was a mass movement. I think he said this with tongue in cheek. He said that today they understood better the work of Gandhi. Ayyangar said that Gandhi appealed to soul force and to him means were more important than ends. Mao said that non-violence and non co-operation was also struggle.

6. When Ayyangar said that "your progress is so fast that you will soon catch up with us," Mao replied, "not necessarily." [The Indian] Ambassador said then we will go ahead together.

7. Mao said that they had to win the battle of ideas. The West was losing it. The Suez crisis was briefly mentioned.

8. Mao laughed when Ayyangar said that in the earlier years of our independence India had been like a drum, beaten on both sides, by Russia and the USA. Now the world had come to realise that our way was the right way. Mao agreed.

9. Mao asked questions about our plan and listened with interest to the story of the integration of Indian States. The Princes were done away within a few months without civil war. But like your capitalists they are allowed to exist and provided for. Mao said: "But our capitalists are allowed to work." "So are the Princess in India," said the Speaker. "We have given them pensions." Mao said: "The Princes of Tibet were alarmed each time reform was suggested. Perhaps the Indian way would help in Tibet." This was an important and significant remark. All is not well in Tibet.

10. During the discussion Mao smoked non-stop and so did Liu Shao Chi. Mao paid the Indian Ambassador a fine and neat compliment when he got up to light the Ambassador's cigarette. A deliberate gesture. Enough to indicate "See how much we like you". Not done patronisingly, but with great finesse.

11. Mao said that in the Standing Committee he was only a delegate, Liu Shao Chi was the boss. But if the Speaker invited him, Liu then would of course go to India.

12. Hope expressed that more and more people in the two countries would make an effort to learn each other's language.

13. On the way out Mao stopped three times to talk to delegates. Had his overcoat and famous cap on. This time he touched on Pakistan. Said that he had told the Pakistan PM now in Peking that by joining the Baghdad Pact, they had lost the friendship of their West Asian friends and by joining the SEATO they had lost the friendship of the East Asian nations. "Why were they doing all this?" The Pakistan PM has asked for another interview with him. Mao said he had no faith in the UNO and it was completely dominated by the USA.

14. Kashmir was discussed. "You must decide it amongst yourselves. I wish to see India reunited. Partition is unnatural." Ayyangar spoke in the same vein, said that by division we had lost our two hands and if Kashmir went then we would lose our head.

15. Mao interested to learn that 40 million Muslims still in India and oppose Pak policy on Kashmir. We had one of the Muslim MPs and he spoke to him.

16. Earlier Mao had quoted Confucius.

17. We left his residence at 1.45 a.m. The MPs all aptly thought it the climax of their trip and were all impressed by the performance of their leader. So was I.

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