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“I am waiting to see Pakistan keep its word”

In an interview to Karan Thapar for CNN-IBN’s Devil’s Advocate programme, External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee urged Pakistan to follow up its steps against terrorist organisations to the logical conclusion and totally dismantle infrastructural facilities available for terrorists. The time frame for Pakistan to take action depended on “how fast, how quickly Pakistan responds; or whether they respond at all or not,” Mr. Mukherjee said.

Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil’s Advocate.

How should we assess Pakistan’s response to the terror strike on Mumbai? That is the big issue I shall explore today with the Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee.

Foreign Minister, let us start with the responses from Pakistan so far. Reports say that LeT offices have been raided; Jamat-ud-Dawah offices have been sealed; newspapers claim that perhaps as many as seventy people have been either arrested or detained, including Masood Azhar, Hafiz Mohammad Sayeed, Zaki-ur-Rahman Lakhvi; and they say that the action is continuing. Does this begin to look like a meaningful first step?

Pranab Mukherjee: Let us wait and see whether these actions are taken to their logical conclusion. You know what happened after the attack on Parliament in 2001. Almost similar type of action was taken at the initial stage when the international pressure was mounting on. But after that it was let off. Therefore, we shall have to see whether these are taken to their logical conclusion. So far as JuD is concerned, now I understand that the Security Council Committee has declared it as an outfit of the banned Lashkar-e-Taiba. The response which we have received through the media — of course there is no official communication from Pakistan to us — is that the Foreign Minister and other Pakistan authorities reacted that they will fulfil the obligations as per the international requirement.

Are you now waiting to see that they keep that word?

I am not waiting only for that; I am waiting to see whether these steps are pursued seriously; followed up to their logical conclusion; the infrastructure facilities available there for the terrorists are totally dismantled; and the outlawed or banned organisations do not reappear with a new name, with a new signboard but with the same old faces.

I understand that. But I also note that Admiral Mullen, the American Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has described the steps Pakistan has taken as very positive; he has called them great steps. Now today you met the American Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte. What impression did he give you about America? Do they think Pakistan has taken effective steps or are they prepared to wait like you for full measures to happen?

I would not like to disclose what transpired between me and Negroponte fully because I understand he is going to have an interaction with the media. But he shared his perception and we gave our perceptions to him. We clearly pointed out that we would like to see that these steps are taken to their logical conclusion; words must be followed by action.

Pakistan has proposed a high-level political delegation which they want to send to India. And they said that this is different from their original idea of a joint commission. How do you respond to that?

I would like to have the official communication first. That is because in response to my demarche, in the first sentence itself it was stated that they were considering various aspects. As to what would be the composition, what would be the nature, what would be the task; we do not know anything. I must know what is this high-level delegation which will come, what is the purpose.

So this has not been officially communicated to India as yet.

No.

It has only been mentioned in the press by Pakistan.

In their response they have said that they would like to send it, but no details have been [made] available to us.

So, you are awaiting clarification.

Yes.

Now, one of the proposals Pakistan has made earlier, which your government has indicated you are not impressed by, is their suggestion of a joint investigative mechanism under a Joint Commission headed by the two NSAs to look at the evidence. Why is that not a step forward?

From our past experiences we have seen various mechanisms are in place. Take the case of Joint Anti-Terror Mechanism. What was the purpose of Joint Anti-Terror Mechanism? It was to share information, intelligence, and thereafter to follow it up. In four meetings which have taken place since its establishment, nothing has been produced. It has yielded no results. It was an exchange of views, and thereafter it is not followed up.

So, in fact, your experience leads you to believe that the investigative mechanism they are suggesting would be equally …

I am not coming to any conclusion but we think that whatever they committed, whatever they are to do, let them do it first.

Now, late last night the Pakistan Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi went on television to say that the steps they have so far taken are on the basis of investigations they have done on their own, but now they need evidence from India to go further. Do you think that evidence from India can be made available since he is publicly asking for it?

Whatever evidence we have we can make it available. But you know this case we are also investigating. We have not come to the conclusions. Therefore, at this juncture perhaps it would be premature to share the evidence.

But at the right time you are prepared to do so.

We have shared the evidence in the past. This point I am repeating that it has not been followed up and it has not been taken to its logical conclusion.

Absolutely. In the past they have, in a sense, not taken it further. But you are also saying that when you reach your conclusions you will be prepared to share evidence this time round.

If it is needed, surely I would like to share it with them.

The Pakistan Ambassador at the U.N. has gone public on television to say that they would like access to the terrorist in India’s custody Ajmal Kasab so that they can be satisfied that he is genuinely a Pakistani.

I do not think I have received any formal communication from the Pakistan Embassy.

So, once again they are communicating through the media, not doing it officially.

I do not know. At least to my knowledge it has not yet reached me. I do not know whether it has reached at the lower level. I will find it out.

But is this something that could be possible?

How can I say it right now? Are they claiming that this man is a Pakistani citizen? I do not know! Have they claimed the dead bodies? I do not know!

In fact, their newspaper Dawn has done an interview with Ajmal Kasab’s father who has recognised the picture and accepted it is his son.

Everything is appearing in the media. But the fact of the matter is that there is a way of communication between two governments.

And that is not happening.

Up to now it has not happened.

From everything you know about what happened in Mumbai, do you believe that this was primarily the work of non-state actors, or is there any truth to a report put out by PTI late last week that the government has evidence that suggests that ISI is officially involved as well?

Look, I am not interested in having trial by media. These are the areas of investigation. After investigation it is taken to the court, due process of law and procedure established by law should follow. Therefore, I am not in a position to share any of this information. It is for the media inquisitiveness people may be interested in it but being in the government I am not interested in it. Second point which I would like to suggest is that non-state actors are not coming from heaven, as I told Parliament yesterday. They do not come from a different planet. They live and function from and within the territory of a particular country.

In this case Pakistan.

In this case Pakistan. That is why repeatedly I said, “elements from Pakistan.” That is the phrase I have used meticulously.

And that is the phrase you prefer to use at this moment. You do not want to be more specific.

I would not like to be more specific unless the definitive conclusion is arrived at by the investigating agencies and they prosecute the person. There is a legal system in our country. They will take care of it. Till then we shall have to keep whatever information we have for the interest of the prosecution and a fair trial.

I understand. Let us come briefly to the demarche you have given to the Pakistan government. There has been a lot of speculation about it in the press. Am I right in saying that the truth is you have given Pakistan three or four names but you have not specifically asked for extradition; what you have asked for is that you would like them to take action; and you are happy if that action happens without ascribing it to India? Am I correct in characterising it like that?

No. What I have told them is that there are two categories of people involved. There are some people who have committed crimes in India, have left India and have taken shelter in Pakistan, like Dawood Ibrahim. We are asking the Pakistan authorities to hand persons like these to Indian authorities so that there can be trials as per Indian laws here. There are persons who are Pakistan citizens, who are indulging in terrorist activities. Let them be arrested, let them be tried as per Pakistan laws. One person I am particularly mentioning is Masood Azhar. He was in Indian custody. We had to hand over to the hijackers of the Indian plane in Kandahar. He is available in Pakistan. More than often he appears on the television screen in Pakistan … So, why cannot the Pakistan government hand over that man to us? And what is the point of keeping him under house arrest?

I understand. This is in a sense a critical test of their sincerity and their genuine cooperation.

I am not making a value judgment. I am asking them to do what I wanted them to act upon. I am telling them that twice at the highest level they had given assurances that Pakistan territories would not be allowed to be used by terrorists to carry on activities against India. Please dismantle them, and please prove that it is not being used!

In these circumstances, as Foreign Minister, would it be proper and fitting for the Indian cricket team’s tour of Pakistan to go ahead? Or do you think it should be reconsidered?

Do not mix politics with cricket. Of course, I do not think that a conducive atmosphere prevails right now. But the authorities are different. Taking into account all circumstances they will decide.

But as you say, do not mix politics with cricket.

Yes.

On Thursday in Parliament, I believe in response to a question that was asked, you ruled out the option of war. But Yashwant Sinha, one of your predecessors, went public that night and said that India must not rule out the military option.

Every individual is entitled to hold his view. So, I cannot gag Mr. Yashwant Sinha or anybody else. What I can say is what I believe and what the position of the government of India is that war is not the solution to the problem.

In which case, how much time are you prepared to give Pakistan before you come to the conclusion that they simply are not taking effective action?

It depends on how fast, how quickly Pakistan responds; or whether they respond at all or not. Therefore, it is not possible for me to indicate any timeframe right now.

A lot of your hope and expectation centres around the new dispensation. Asif Zardari has only been President for just under three months. Are you a little concerned by this whole hoax telephone controversy that happened? It shows that the President of Pakistan was a little gullible, to put it politely. And does that worry you?

No, I am not talking about anything individually to President. As I mentioned, only once I had a conversation with him when I visited Pakistan in May 2008 and when I called on him — then he was the leader of the party but he was not the President — as I had discussions with all the leaders of different political parties. And in that connection I went to meet him and also to express my condolence personally at the sad assassination …[wall clock chimed]…

God has his own way of interrupting us!

Let me repeat that question to you because this is the last question. I will repeat it again, Sir. My last question.

A lot of your hopes and expectations centre around the new civilian regime and Asif Zardari has only been President for less than three months. Are you a little perturbed by this hoax call controversy that the system in Pakistan and perhaps the President himself were a little gullible and got taken in by a hoax call?

I am a little concerned about the type of hysteria which was developed as a result of this hoax call. If the government is guided or to take certain actions on receiving a hoax call, then surely it is a matter of concern to everybody. But factual position is that, as I explained earlier, there was no question of me calling the President of another country. Normal diplomatic courtesy demands that the President should be talked to by the Prime Minister and I can have a conversation with my counterpart which …

Mr. Mukherjee, a pleasure talking to you on Devil’s Advocate.

Thank you.

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